John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me

Spoken to: 

Apostles

Context: 

Jesus's prayer to his Father at the Last Supper

Greek : 

Literal Verse: 

And now recognize me, you yourself, Father, near Yourself with that recognition that I had before this, the world orders' existence before You.

KJV : 

John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.

Interesting and Hidden Aspects: 

The verb for "glorify" means to "imagine," "expect", "think", and "suppose." Jesus often seems to use it in the sense of "recognize" as we use the word to mean "honor." This word is translated in the NT as a command/request,  but the verb form could be a future participle, modifying "Father". However, a command is easier to translate.

The term translated as "world" actually means the "world order" that is, the powers-that-be,  not the planet. See this article for more.

The word "with" used in this verse three times has a couple different sources, but the proposition translated as "with" more likely means something else, most likely "issuing from."

There is a problem with the verb translated in the KJV as the final "was"  ("before the world was" ) and the even less accurate "began" in the NIV.  It is not in a form of a past tense in the original Greek. It is a present infinitive. The KJV translation was determined by the Latin Vulgate-based Greek. In the Latin Vulgate, this verb was a past form (imperfect) of the verb "to be". Unfortunately, all modern translations follow the KJV in their sense of this verb referring to the past. The point being made is theological rather than what Jesus said.

NIV : 

John 17:5 And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Wordplay: 

Plays on different meanings of "para," which could mean "near," or "before" in the sense of coming "before" a judge. These multiple meanings provide the punchline at the end of the verse.

My Takeaway: 

Jesus's reputation come from the same source as the social order.

Related Verses: 

Greek Vocabulary: 

καὶ (conj/adv) "And" is from kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "but." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even", "also," and "just."

νῦν (adv) "Now" is from nun (nyn), which means "now", "at the present moment", "at the present time", "just now", "presently," and "as it is."

δόξασόν (part sg fut act masc voc or 2nd sg aor imperat act) "Glorify" is from doxazo (doxazo), which primarily means "to think", "to expect", "to imagine," or "to suppose." Secondarily, it means "to magnify" or "to extol," which is where we get the "glorify" used in the translation.

με (pron 1st sg masc acc) "Me" is from eme, which means "I", "me", and "my".

σύ (pron 2nd sg nom) "Thou" is from su (su) which means "you" and "your."

πάτερ (noun sg masc voc) "Father" is from pater (pater), which means "father", "grandfather", "author", "parent," and "forefathers."

παρὰ  (prep) "With" is para, has many meanings, which depend on the case of its object and the sense of the verb.With the genitive, the sense is always motion, "from the side of," "from beside," "issuing from", and generally "from." With the dative, the sense is always static, "by the side of," "near," and "before." With the accusative, its has a number of specialized meanings depending on the character of the verb, with coming/going "near," "beside," with placing "side-by-side," as a metaphor, "like" or "as a parody of, of comparison, "compared with" and many more including "along", "past", "beyond", "parallel (geometry)", "precisely at the moment of (time)," and "throughout (time)."

σεαυτῷ (pro sg masc 2nd dat) "Thine own self" is from seautou (seatou), which means "of yourself."

τῇ (article sg fem dat ) "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").

δόξῃ (noun sg fem dat) "The glory" is from doxa , which means "expectation", "notion", "opinion", "repute," and "popular repute." Translations as "glory" or "splendor" are applied to external appearances but are found primarily in translating the Bible.

( sg fem dat ) "Which" is hos, which means "this", "that", "he", "she", "which", "what", "who", "whosoever", "where", "for which reason," and many similar meanings. --

εἶχον (1st sg imperf ind act) "I had" is from echô (echo), which means "to have", "to hold", "to possess", "to keep", "to have charge of", "to maintain", "to hold fast", "to bear", "to keep close", "to keep safe," and "to have means to do."

πρὸ (prep) "Before" is pros, which means "from (place)", "on the side of", "toward", "before", "in the presence of", "in the eyes of", "before (supplication)", "proceeding from (for effects)", "dependent on", "derivable from", "agreeable,""becoming", "like", "at the point of", "in addition to", "against," and "before."

τοῦ (article sg masc/neut gen) Untranslated is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the"), which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one" or, in the plural, "the ones." 

τὸν  (article sg masc acc) "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").

κόσμον (noun sg masc acc) "The world" is from kosmos, which mean "order", "good order", "ruler", "world order", "universe," and "the world of men." Matthew uses it when Christ is talking about the order in the universe, specifically the order of the world of men, as it is designed to be.

εἶναι (verb pres inf act) "Was" is eimi, which means "to be", "to exist", "to be the case," and "is possible." It can also mean "must" with a dative.

παρὰ  (prep) "With" is para, has many meanings, which depend on the case of its object and the sense of the verb.With the genitive, the sense is always motion, "from the side of," "from beside," "issuing from", and generally "from." With the dative, the sense is always static, "by the side of," "near," and "before." With the accusative, its has a number of specialized meanings depending on the character of the verb, with coming/going "near," "beside," with placing "side-by-side," as a metaphor, "like" or "as a parody of, of comparison, "compared with" and many more including "along", "past", "beyond", "parallel (geometry)", "precisely at the moment of (time)," and "throughout (time)."

σοί (pron 2nd sg dat) "The" is from sou (sou) which means "you" and "your."

KJV Analysis: 

And -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and", but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). I

now, -- The Greek word translated as "now" means "now", "at the present moment","presently," and "as it is."

O -- (IW) This word is added to indicate that Jesus is using a Greek word form of address.

Father, -- "Father" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers". It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father. 

glorify -- (CW) The Greek term translated as "to have glory" is a word that primarily means "to imagine" and "to expect." It also means "to honor" in a sense. However, the word that it comes closest to in English is "to recognize" since that word captures both the mental imaging and honoring sense of the word. More about this word in this article. The form could be a command, but it could also be a participle used as an adjective modifying "father."

thou --  The "thou" here is the singular, subjective, second-person pronoun. Since pronouns are not usually used for subject in Greek, its use is to accentuate the word like we would say "you yourself".

me -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition.

with -- (WW) The word translated as "with," with the dative, as it is here, has a static sense, "by the side of," "near," and "before."

thine own self -- The "thine own self" is the Greek second-second person reflexive pronoun.

with -- (CW) This is from the dative form of the following words. It is not the preposition used above.

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article. The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this", "that", "these", "those") that the English "the." See this article for more. 

glory -- The Greek noun translated as "glory" means "expectation", "notion", "opinion", "repute," and "popular repute." Translations as "glory" or "splendor" are found primarily in translating the Bible. The words "recognition", "reputation", and "an honor" come closest to capturing the way Christ uses the word.

which -- The word translated as "who" is a demonstrative pronoun ("this" "that"), but it often acts as a pronoun ("the one that), especially a connective pronoun ("the one that") introducing a dependent clause.

I -- This is from the first-person, singular form of the verb.

had -- The word translated as "have" means to "have", "possess", "bear", "keep close", "have means to do",  "to have due to one", or "keep" and many specific uses.

with -- (WP, WW) The word translated as "with," with the dative, as it is here, has a static sense, "by the side of," "near," and "before."

thee -- The word for "you" is the indirect object form of the singular, second-person pronoun. 

before -- The word translated as "to" means "towards", "by reason of (for)," "before" both in time and place,  "against," and several other types of "before." With verbs of seeing it specifically means "towards."

untranslated "the"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article, "the," which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this", "that", "these", "those"). See this article for more. This is the object of the preposition, not "the world." This article may be meant to preceded the infinite, making the infinitive into a description of its action, in this case "being" or "existence."

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article. The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this", "that", "these", "those") that the English "the." See this article for more. 

world -- Jesus uses the word translated as "the world" to mean "the world order," specifically the powers-that-be. Today, we use the word "society" in this sense. More about this word in this article about related words.

was. -- (WF, WT) The verb "was" here is the common form of "to be" in Greek. It means to have a certain characteristic or remain in a certain condition. It also equates terms or assigns characteristics.  The form is not an advice verb, but an infinite. The tense is present, not past.

KJV Translation Issues: 

9
  • IW - Inserted Word -- The word "O" doesn't exist in the source.
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The word translated as "glorify" is more like "recognize."
  • WW - Wrong Word -- The word translated as "with" is much more likely better translated as another word, probably "issuing from."
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The word translated as "with" is not the previous preposition but a dative form.
  • WW - Wrong Word -- The word translated as "with" is much more likely better translated as another word, probably "issuing from."
  • WP -- Wrongly Placed -- The proposition phrase   doesn't appear here but at the end of the verse.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" after the preposition is not shown in the English translation.
  • WF - Wrong Form -  The "was" is not in the form of a active verb, but an infinitive acting as a noun describing the action.
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "was" indicates the past tense, but the tense is present.

NIV Analysis: 

And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.

Front Page Date: 

May 3 2017