Luke 24:17 ...What manner of communications are these

Spoken to
group

On the road to Emmaus, Cleopas and another man meet Jesus after his resurrection. These are the first words the risen Jesus speaks in Luke.

KJV

Luke 24:17 ...What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?

NIV

Luke 24:17 .What are you discussing together as you walk along?

LISTENERS HEARD

What are these ideas here which you throw against one to another, walking around.

LOST IN TRANSLATION

Neither English translation translates the Greek meaning "these words here" accurately. The KJV substitutes "manner of communication" and the NIV ignores entirely.

The words translated as "discussing" in the NIV as "you have" in the KJV are used only here by Jesus. They are humorous, meaning "toss against" each other. 

The "are you sad" are part of the narrative not Jesus's words, but the  outdated KJV source had wrong.

MY TAKE

We like to toss controversial things back and forth.

GREEK ORDER

 

Τίνες        οἱ       λόγοι  οὗτοι οὓς    ἀντιβάλλετε πρὸς    ἀλλήλους          περιπατοῦντες;
What are these ideas    here  which you throw    against one to another, walking around.

# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES
8

What (MW) [manner of communications(CW)] are these that ye have(WW) one to another, as(IW) ye(IW) walk(WF), [and are sad(OS)]?

  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the/this" before "manner" is not shown in the English translation.
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "manner of communication" does not capture the word's specific meaning-
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "have" should be something more like "thrown against."
  • IW - Inserted Word-- The "as" doesn't exist in the source.
  • IW - Inserted Word-- The "ye" doesn't exist in the source.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  This is not an active verb but a participle, a verbal adjective, "walking."
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "are" should be something more like "to set up."
  • OS -- Outdated Source -- The Greek word translated as "and are you sad" existed in the KJV Greek source but not the source we use today. 
# NIV TRANSLATION ISSUES
8

What (MP4) are you discussing(WF) together as(IW) you(IW) walk(WF) along?

  • MP4 - Missing Phrase - The phrase "these words here that"  exists in the source.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  This is  a participle  but  not an active verb, "discuss."
  • IW - Inserted Word-- The "as" doesn't exist in the source.
  • IW - Inserted Word-- The "ye" doesn't exist in the source.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  This is not an active verb but a participle, a verbal adjective, "walking."
EACH WORD of KJV

.What -- The word translated as "what" means primarily "anything" or "anyone," but Jesus often uses it to start a question so it means "who", "what", or even "why". 

 missing "the/this"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article," the," which usually precedes a noun or changes the word it precedes (adjective, infinitive, participle, etc.) to act like a noun. The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," and "those"). See this article for more. 

 manner of communications --   (CW) "Manner of communications" is translated from a Greek word that means "calculation," or "reasoning," but it has many, many specific meanings from "deliberation," "question," "subject matter," "narrative," and so on.  It is the source of our word "logic" and is the root word for all the English words that end in "-ology." Most biblical translations translated it as "word" for somewhat poetic reasons. However, when applied to people, it means "repute" or "reputation." More about this word in this article. In English, we would say "logic," "concept, or "reasoning" to describe it but it also means the communication of various types, so "message" often works. "Teaching" might work but it is unrelated to the common words for "to teach," "teacher," and "student" that all have the same root.  

are -- There is no verb "are" here in the Greek source but it is implied by the noun in the form of a subject having no verb associated with it.

these -- "These" is translated from a Greek word that means "this", "that", "the nearer."

that -- The word translated as "that" is a demonstrative pronoun ("this" "that"), but it often acts as a pronoun ("the one that), especially a connective pronoun ("the one that") introducing a dependent clause.

ye -- This is from the second-person, singular form of the verb.

have -- (WW) "Ye have" is not the Greek word "have" or anything like it. It is a word that Jesus uses only here in the NT. It means which means "throw against," "throw in turn," "put against each other," "exchange words "(in a conversation), and "compare". The obvious meanings is "to exchange words" but the sense is lighter, like the literal meaning which is "toss against" or "toss mutually". In English, we would say "toss back and forth." This word doesn't mean "have."  

 one  -- The "one...another" here is an uncommon word for Christ, and primarily it means "one another." Here, it appears before the verb.

to -- The word translated as "to" means "towards", "by reason of (for)," and "against."

 another, -- The "one...another" here is an uncommon word for Christ, and primarily it means "one another." Here, it appears before the verb.

as -- (IW) This word is not in the Greek source

ye -- (IW) This word is not in the Greek source

walk -- (WF) "Walk" is a Greek verb that means "to walk up and down", "to walk about," and "to walk about while teaching." The form of that of an adjective, "walking about". The form is masculine plural. This is not an active verb but a participle, a verbal adjective, "walking." 

and are you sad-- (OS) There is nothing in the Greek that can be translated as this in the source we use today but it does exist in the source that the KJV translators used. The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and", but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). The verb translated as "are" means "to make stand", "to set up", "to establish and similar words. Like the English words "put" and "set," it has a number of specific meanings including a passive one that means "behave" or "take up an attitude. However, in the passive it can also be a stronger form of "to be" when referring to being in a certain state, maybe "they are being". The tense is something happening at a specific point in time, past, present, or future. This tense only makes sense if describing there two followers reacting to the question. This word doesn't mean "are." 

 sad? --   The Greek word translated as "sad" means "of sad or angry ," "sullen," "with greater severity," of things: "gloomy," "sad," "melancholy," and "dark and dull [of color]." --

 

EACH WORD of NIV

What -- The word translated as "what" means primarily "anything" or "anyone," but Jesus often uses it to start a question so it means "who", "what", or even "why". 

are -- -- This helping verb indicates the present tense of the verb. It is used here to form the present, progressive tense, which doesn't exist in Greek but which can smooth the flow of English sentences.

you -- This is from the second-person, singular form of the verb.

missing "these words here that"  -- -- (MP4) The Greek words here aren't. The untranslated word is the Greek definite article," the," which usually precedes a noun or changes the word it precedes (adjective, infinitive, participle, etc.) to act like a noun. The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," and "those"). See this article for more. "Words" is from a Greek word that means "calculation," or "reasoning," but it has many, many specific meanings from "deliberation," "question," "subject matter," "narrative," and so on.  More about this word in this article.  

discussing  -- (WF) "Discussing" is a word that Jesus uses only here in the NT. It means which means "throw against," "throw in turn," "put against each other," "exchange words "(in a conversation), and "compare". The obvious meanings is "to exchange words" but the sense is lighter, like the literal meaning which is "toss against" or "toss mutually". In English, we would say "toss back and forth." This is  a participle  but  not an active verb, "discuss." 

to-  -- The word translated as "to" means "towards", "by reason of (for)," and "against."

-gether -- The "gether" here is an uncommon word for Christ, and primarily it means "one another." Here, it appears before the verb.

as -- (IW) This word is not in the Greek source

you -- (IW) This word is not in the Greek source

walk -- (WF) "Walk" is a Greek verb that means "to walk up and down", "to walk about," and "to walk about while teaching." The form of that of an adjective, "walking about". The form is masculine plural. This is not an active verb but a participle, a verbal adjective, "walking." WF -- Wrong Form -  This is not an active verb but a participle, a verbal adjective, "walking."

along - This completes the meaning of the verb. It is from the prefix.

 

COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV

Τίνες (irreg pl masc nom) "What" is tis which can mean "someone", "any one", "everyone", "they [indefinite]", "many a one", "whoever", "anyone", "anything", "some sort", "some sort of", "each", "any", "the individual", "such," and so on. In a question, it can mean "who", "why," or "what."

οἱ [821 verses](article plmasc nom)  Untranslated is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the"). It usually precedes a noun or changes the word it precedes (adjective, infinitive, participle, etc.) to act like a noun. When not preceding a a word that can become a noun, takes the meaning of "the one" or, in the plural, "the ones."  --

λόγοι ( noun pl masc nom ) "Manner of communications" is logos, which means "word", "computation", "relation", "explanation", "law", "rule of conduct", "continuous statement", "tradition", "discussion," "reckoning," and "value." --

οὗτοι ( adj pl masc nom ) "These" is houtos, which as an adjective means "this", "that", "the nearer." As an adverb, it means "in this way", "therefore", "so much", "to such an extent," and "that is why." --

οὓς ( pron pl masc acc) "That" is hos, which means "this", "that", "he", "she", "which", "what", "who", "whosoever", "where", "for which reason," and many similar meanings. --

ἀντιβάλλετε [1 verse]( verb 2nd pl pres ind act ) "Ye have" is antiballo, which means "throw against," "throw in turn," "put against each other," "exchange words "(in a conversation), and "compare".

πρὸς (prep) "To" is pros, which means "on the side of", "in the direction of", "from (place)", "towards" "before", "in the presence of", "in the eyes of", "in the name of", "by reason of", "before (supplication)", "proceeding from (for effects)", "dependent on", "derivable from", "agreeable,""becoming", "like", "at the point of", "in addition to", "against," and "before." --

ἀλλήλους [[14 verses]] (adj pl masc acc) "One...another" is from allêlôn (allelon), which means "one another", "to one another", "mutually," and "reciprocally."

περιπατοῦντες; ( part pl pres act masc nom ) "Walk" is peripateo, which means "to walk up and down", "to walk about," and "to walk about while teaching."

The following words are part of the narrative, not Jesus's word, but the source of the KJV made them Jesus's words in different forms.

καὶ (conj/adv) "And" is kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "but." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even", "also," and "just."

ἐστάθησαν ( verb 3rd pl aor ind pass ) "Are" is histemi, which means "to make to stand", "to stand", "to set up", "to bring to a standstill", "to check", "to appoint", "to establish", "to fix by agreement", "to be placed", "to be set", "to stand still", "to stand firm", "to set upright", "to erected", "to arise," and "to place."

σκυθρωποί.  (adj pl masc nom) "Sad" comes from skythropos, which means "of sad or angry ", "sullen", "with greater severity," of things: "gloomy", "sad", "melancholy," and "dark and dull [of color]."

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