Mark 2:19 Can the children of the bride chamber fast

Spoken to: 

The Pharisees

The Pharisees ask why Jesus's students to not fast.

KJV: 

Mark 2:19  Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.

NIV : 

Mark 2:19 How can the guests of the bridegroom fast while he is with them? They cannot, so long as they have him with them.

LISTENERS HEARD: 

They don't have the power to fast, those sons of the wedding party during it. The bridegroom is with them. As far as while they have the bridegroom with them, no, they really don't have the power to fast.

MY TAKE: 

The power we don't want, we don't have.

GREEK (Each Word Explained Bottom of Page): 

GREEK ORDER: 

Μὴ  δύνανται                            οἱ       υἱοὶ      τοῦ νυμφῶνος
No, they don't have  the power those sons of the wedding party

ἐν        νυμφίος         μετ᾽ αὐτῶν ἐστὶν νηστεύειν;
during it the bridegroom with them   is       to fast,

ὅσον       χρόνον ἔχουσιν    τὸν νυμφίον      μετ᾽ αὐτῶν 
As far as while,  they have the bridegroom with them?

οὐ    δύνανται                                     νηστεύειν:
No, they really don't have the power to fast.

LOST IN TRANSLATION: 

The English translations try to make this a question followed by a negative response, but Jesus actually said two negative statements. The difference between the two is the negatives used with the word translated as "can." The word translated as "can" means "to have power" or to have an ability." The first negative means "not wanting to have the ability to fast." The second negative means "more really having the power to fast." It is a contrast of the subjective desire with a factual statement. The sense is of "not wanting" to do something, not that it isn't done.

This verse doesn't seem all that complicated but the Biblical translations ignore words, move around ideas. The literal translation makes more sense than their "simplified" version if we just move a couple of verbs to where they belong in English sentences.

# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES: 

8
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "not" is not shown in the English translation.
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "can" is not a helper verb, but the active verb in the sentence. This is not an active verb, but an infinite.
  • WF - Wrong Form -  The "fast" is not an active verb but an infinitive, "to fast."
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "while" should be something more like "during."
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "it" is not shown in the English translation.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "time" is not shown in the English translation. 
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "can" is not a helper verb, but the active verb in the sentence. This is not an active verb, but an infinite.
  • WF - Wrong Form -  The "fast" is not an active verb but an infinitive, "to fast."

# NIV TRANSLATION ISSUES: 

15
  • IW - Inserted Word -- The word "how" doesn't exist in the source.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "not" is not shown in the English translation.
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "can" is not a helper verb, but the active verb in the sentence. This is not an active verb, but an infinite.
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "guests" should be something more like "sons."
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "bridegroom" should be something more like "wedding."
  • WF - Wrong Form -  The "fast" is not an active verb but an infinitive, "to fast."
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "while" should be something more like "during."
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "it" is not shown in the English translation.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" before "bridegroom" is not shown in the English translation. 
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "he" should be something more like "bridegroom."
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "can" is not a helper verb, but the active verb in the sentence. This is not an active verb, but an infinite.
  • WF - Wrong Form -  The "fast" is not an active verb but an infinitive, "to fast."
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "time" is not shown in the English translation. 
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" before "bridegroom" is not shown in the English translation. 
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "he" should be something more like "bridegroom."

EACH WORD of KJV : 

missing "not"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek negative of a subjective opinion, commands, and requests. The sense is that "you don't want" or "think" something, not that it isn't done or thought.   With the verb "to be," the sense is "doesn't seem." When a negative precedes the verb, it affects the whole clause. When it precedes other words, its force is limited to those words. This is the negative used with commands or requests. Used with an imperative to express a will or wish. Used in negative "when" and "if" clauses.

 Can -- (CW) The word translated as "can" means having the power or possibly a desire to accomplish something. Often, in English, "can" is a helper verb, indicating a possibility. In Greek, it indicates ability or power. This is the active verb here, not a helper verb. It takes an infinitive as "have the ability" does in English.

fast, - (WF)  The term translated as "fast" specifically means a religious fast. The verb is the present tense. The verb is an infinitive, "to fast." In the Matthew version, the Greek is different, a word that means "to wail" or "to mourn"is used.

while  -- (WW) The word translated as "in" means "in," "within," "with" (an instrument), "by" (near), "by" (means of), "during" (time),  or "among"  with a dative object as the one here.  With the accusative, it means "into," "on," and "for." When referring to time, it means "during." It can mean "on," "at," or "by" in the sense of "near."

missing "it"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  ."this" is a demonstrative pronoun ("this" "that"), but it often acts as a pronoun "which," "what," "who," "whosoever," "where," "for which reason," and many similar meanings.

the - The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

bridegroom   - The word translated as "the bridegroom" is a male form of the adjective meaning "bridal," hence, "groom" or "son-in-law."

is -- The verb "is" here is the common form of "to be" in Greek. It means to have a certain characteristic or remain in a certain condition. It also equates terms or assigns characteristics.  The word also means "to exist" and where it doesn't connect to characteristics or conditions. With the genitive object, the sense is "belongs to." With an indirect object, it means "have" where the subject and object are reversed. -- When the verb "to be" appears early in the clause before the subject, the sense is more like "it is" or, in the plural, "there are."

with   -- "With" is the Greek word that usually means "with" or a related concept such as "among" or "by the means of." It also refers to "after" or "behind" when referring to a place, time, or pursuit.

them? -- The word translated as "them" is the Greek adjective that acts like our third-person pronoun. The form is the third person, plural in the genitive form. As a preposition's object means a movement away from something or a position away from something else.

as long as -- The adjective translated as "as long as" means "as great as," "as much as," and similar ideas of comparison.

missing "time"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  "time" means "time," "period," "date," "lifetime," "age," "season," "delay," and "tense." Jesus often uses in the general sense of "interval."

they -- This is from the third-person, plural form of the verb.

have -- The word translated as "have" means to "have," "possess," "bear," "keep close," "hold in," "have means to do,"  "to have due to one," or "keep" and many specific uses.

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

bridegroom - The word translated as "the bridegroom" is a male form of the adjective meaning "bridal," hence, "groom" or "son-in-law."

with   -- "With" is the Greek word that usually means "with" or a related concept such as "among" or "by the means of." It also refers to "after" or "behind" when referring to a place, time, or pursuit.

them, -- The word translated as "their" is the Greek adjective that acts like our third-person pronoun. The form is the third person, plural in the genitive form. It is used as a possessive or the object of a verb or preposition.  As a preposition's object means a movement away from something or a position away from something else.

they -- This is from the third-person, plural form of the verb.

can -- (CW) The word translated as "can" means having the power or possibly a desire to accomplish something. Often, in English, "can" is a helper verb, indicating a possibility. In Greek, it indicates ability or power. This is the active verb here, not a helper verb. It takes an infinitive as "have the ability" does in English.

not-- The Greek word translated as "not" is the Greek negative used to deny objective facts, not opinions. It means "no," "not," or"no truly." It makes a negative statement of fact. Adding "really" to the sentence captures the same idea. When a negative precedes the verb, it affects the whole clause. When it precedes other words, its force is limited to those words.

fast. - (WF)  The term translated as "fast" specifically means a religious fast. The verb is the present tense. The verb is an infinitive, "to fast." In the Matthew version, the Greek is different, a word that means "to wail" or "to mourn"is used.

EACH WORD of NIV : 

How -- (IW) There is nothing that can be translated as "how" in the Greek source

missing "not"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek negative of a subjective opinion, commands, and requests. The sense is that "you don't want" or "think" something, not that it isn't done or thought.   With the verb "to be," the sense is "doesn't seem." When a negative precedes the verb, it affects the whole clause. When it precedes other words, its force is limited to those words. This is the negative used with commands or requests. Used with an imperative to express a will or wish. Used in negative "when" and "if" clauses.  CW - Confusing Word -- The "not" does not capture the word's specific meaning.

can -- (CW) The word translated as "can" means having the power or possibly a desire to accomplish something. Often, in English, "can" is a helper verb, indicating a possibility. In Greek, it indicates ability or power. This is the active verb here, not a helper verb. It takes an infinitive as "have the ability" does in English.

the  -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

guests - (WW) The word translated as "children" specifically means "sons" and more generally means "child" or "children." It can refer to all offspring in later generations, just like "father" refers to all previous generations. Jesus also used it metaphorically to describe those who follow a way of thought or set of beliefs that descend from an individual. More about it in this article. The use of this word here seems to indicate that the men in a wedding party do not necessarily act as adults. It is not the word for "guests."

of -- This word "of"  comes from the genitive case of the following word that requires the addition of a preposition in English.  The most common is the "of" of possession.

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

bridegroom - (WW) The term translated "bridegroom " means simply "wedding room" and can refer either to the place of the wedding or to the bridal chamber. This is not the word for "bridegroom.

fast, - (WF)  The term translated as "fast" specifically means a religious fast. The verb is the present tense. The verb is an infinitive, "to fast." In the Matthew version, the Greek is different, a word that means "to wail" or "to mourn"is used.

while  -- (WW) The word translated as "in" means "in," "within," "with" (an instrument), "by" (near), "by" (means of), "during" (time),  or "among"  with a dative object as the one here.  With the accusative, it means "into," "on," and "for." When referring to time, it means "during." It can mean "on," "at," or "by" in the sense of "near."

missing "it"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  ."this" is a demonstrative pronoun ("this" "that"), but it often acts as a pronoun "which," "what," "who," "whosoever," "where," "for which reason," and many similar meanings.

missing "the"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" is not shown in the English translation."the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

he - (WW) The word translated as "he" means bridegroom" is a male form of the adjective meaning "bridal," hence, "groom" or "son-in-law." The pronoun refers to the wrong word, "bridegroom" above.

is -- The verb "is" here is the common form of "to be" in Greek. It means to have a certain characteristic or remain in a certain condition. It also equates terms or assigns characteristics.  The word also means "to exist" and where it doesn't connect to characteristics or conditions. With the genitive object, the sense is "belongs to." With an indirect object, it means "have" where the subject and object are reversed. -- When the verb "to be" appears early in the clause before the subject, the sense is more like "it is" or, in the plural, "there are."

with   -- "With" is the Greek word that usually means "with" or a related concept such as "among" or "by the means of." It also refers to "after" or "behind" when referring to a place, time, or pursuit.

them? -- The word translated as "them" is the Greek adjective that acts like our third-person pronoun. The form is the third person, plural in the genitive form. As a preposition's object means a movement away from something or a position away from something else.

They -- This is from the third-person, plural form of the verb.

can -- (CW) The word translated as "can" means having the power or possibly a desire to accomplish something. Often, in English, "can" is a helper verb, indicating a possibility. In Greek, it indicates ability or power. This is the active verb here, not a helper verb. It takes an infinitive as "have the ability" does in English.

not-- The Greek word translated as "not" is the Greek negative used to deny objective facts, not opinions. It means "no," "not," or"no truly." It makes a negative statement of fact. Adding "really" to the sentence captures the same idea. When a negative precedes the verb, it affects the whole clause. When it precedes other words, its force is limited to those words.

missing "fast"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  MW - Missing Word -- The word "fast" is not shown in the English translation."fast" specifically means a religious fast. The verb is the present tense. The verb is an infinitive, "to fast." In the Matthew version, the Greek is different, a word that means "to wail" or "to mourn"is used.

so long as -- The adjective translated as "as long as" means "as great as," "as much as," and similar ideas of comparison.

missing "time"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  "time" means "time," "period," "date," "lifetime," "age," "season," "delay," and "tense." Jesus often uses in the general sense of "interval."

they -- This is from the third-person, plural form of the verb.

have -- The word translated as "have" means to "have," "possess," "bear," "keep close," "hold in," "have means to do,"  "to have due to one," or "keep" and many specific uses.

missing "the"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" is not shown in the English translation."the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

him - (WW) The word translated as "him" means bridegroom" is a male form of the adjective meaning "bridal," hence, "groom" or "son-in-law." The pronoun refers to the wrong word, "bridegroom" above.

with   -- "With" is the Greek word that usually means "with" or a related concept such as "among" or "by the means of." It also refers to "after" or "behind" when referring to a place, time, or pursuit.

them, -- The word translated as "their" is the Greek adjective that acts like our third-person pronoun. The form is the third person, plural in the genitive form. It is used as a possessive or the object of a verb or preposition.  As a preposition's object means a movement away from something or a position away from something else.

COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV : 

Μὴ [447 verses](conj) Untranslated is me , which is the negative used in prohibitions and expressions of doubt meaning "not" and "no." As οὐ (ou) negates fact and statement; μή rejects, οὐ denies; μή is relative, οὐ absolute; μή subjective, οὐ objective. With pres. or aor. subj. used in a warning or statement of fear, "take care" It can be the conjunction "lest" or "for fear that." Used before tis with an imperative to express a will or wish for something in independent sentences and, with subjunctives, to express prohibitions. -

δύνανται [61 verses](3rd sg pres ind mp) "Can" is the verb, dynamai, which means "to have power by virtue of your own capabilities," "to be able," and "to be strong enough."

οἱ [821 verses](article pl masc nom)  "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the"). 

υἱοὶ [158 verses](noun pl masc nom​) "Children" is huios, which means a "son," and more generally, a "child." It is used generally to refer to any male descendant. -

τοῦ [821 verses](article sg masc gen)  "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the"). 

νυμφῶνος [4 verses](noun sg masc gen) "Bridechamber" is from nymphon, which can either be the room of the marriage bed or marriage ceremony. One form of this word means "bridegroom" and another "bride."

ἐν [413 verses](prep) "In" is en, which means, with a dative object, "in," "on," "at," "by," "among," "within," "surrounded by," "in one's hands," "in one's power," "during,"  and "with." With the accusative, it means "into," "on," and "for." Referring to time, it means. "in the course of" or "during." 

 [294 verses](pron sg masc dat) Untranslated is hos, which means "this," "that," "he," "she," "which," "what," "who," "whosoever," "where," "for which reason," and many similar meanings.

[821 verses](article sg masc nom)  "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the"). 

νυμφίος [9 verses](noun sg masc nom) "Bridegroom" is nymphios, which means "bridal," "bridegroom" and "son-in-law."

μετ᾽ [103 verses](prep) "With" is meta, which means "with," "in the midst of," "among," "between," "in common," "along with," "by the aid of," "in one's dealings with," "into the middle of," "coming into," "in pursuit of," "after," "behind," "according to,"  "after," "behind,"  and "next afterward." With genitive,  it means generally, "with," "together with," "in the midst of," "among," "between." "in common," "along with," "by the aid of," and "in conjunction with." With dative, "between," "among," "in company with," with a number "complete," and "over and above." With accusative, generally, "among" and "between" as with dative, of motion, "into the middle of," "coming into or among," "in pursuit or quest of," of place, "after," "behind," of time, "after," "next to,"  of worth/rank, "next after," of ideas, "after," "according to."

αὐτῶν [86 verses](pron/adj pl masc/fem/neut gen) "Them" is autos, is the genitive case of the third-person, plural adjective that is used as a pronoun. The word also means "the same,""one's true self," and "the soul" as opposed to the body. It also means "of one's own accord."

ἐστίν.[614 verses](3rd sg pres ind act) "Is" is eimi, which means "to be," "to exist," "to be the case," of circumstance and events "to happen,"  and "is possible." With the genitive object, the sense is "belongs to." With the dative, it means "have" where the subject and object are reversed.

νηστεύειν; [10 verses](verb pres inf act) "Fast" is nesteuo, which means "fast" and "to abstain from." 

ὅσον [28 verses](adj pl neut acc) "As long as" is hosos, which means "as many," "as much as," "as great as," "as far as," and "only so far as."

χρόνον [9 verses](noun sg masc acc) Untranslated is chronos, which means "time," "a definite period of time," "period," "date," "term," "lifetime," "age," "season," "delay," and "tense." 

ἔχουσιν [181 verses](verb 3rd pl pres ind act ) "Have" is echo, which means "to have," "to hold," "to possess," "to keep," "to have charge of," "to have due to one," "to maintain," "to hold fast," "to hold in," "to bear," "to carry," "to keep close," "to keep safe," and "to have means to do." In aorist, it can mean "acquire," or "get." The main sense when it has an object is "to have" or "to hold." It can also mean "to without" or "keep back" a thing. 

τὸν [821 verses](article sg masc acc)  "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the"). 

νυμφίον [9 verses](noun sg masc acc) "Bridegroom" is nymphios, which means "bridal," "bridegroom" and "son-in-law." 

μετ᾽ [103 verses](prep) "With" is meta, which means "with," "in the midst of," "among," "between," "in common," "along with," "by the aid of," "in one's dealings with," "into the middle of," "coming into," "in pursuit of," "after," "behind," "according to,"  "after," "behind,"  and "next afterward." With genitive,  it means generally, "with," "together with," "in the midst of," "among," "between." "in common," "along with," "by the aid of," and "in conjunction with." With dative, "between," "among," "in company with," with a number "complete," and "over and above." With accusative, generally, "among" and "between" as with dative, of motion, "into the middle of," "coming into or among," "in pursuit or quest of," of place, "after," "behind," of time, "after," "next to,"  of worth/rank, "next after," of ideas, "after," "according to."

αὐτῶν [86 verses](pron/adj pl masc/fem/neut gen) "Them" is autos, is the genitive case of the third-person, plural adjective that is used as a pronoun. The word also means "the same,""one's true self," and "the soul" as opposed to the body. It also means "of one's own accord."

οὐ [269 verses](partic) "Not" is ou , the negative adverb for facts and statements, negating both single words and sentences.  The other negative adverb, μή applies to will and thought; οὐ denies, μή rejects; οὐ is absolute, μή relative; οὐ objective, μή subjective.

δύνανται [61 verses](3rd sg pres ind mp) "Can" is the verb, dynamai, which means "to have power by virtue of your own capabilities," "to be able," and "to be strong enough."

νηστεύειν: [10 verses](verb pres inf act) "Fast" is nesteuo, which means "fast" and "to abstain from."  - The term translated as "fast" specifically means a religious fast. The verb is in the future tense or a form indicating something that might occur in the future.

Related Verses: 

Unimportant Opinions and Imaginings: 

While in Christian tradition the bride of Christ is the church, there are some subtle indications in the Greek that Jesus is marrying the ancient law of the Judeans. This explains the seemingly unrelated following verses (Mark 2:21) about clothing and wine, since both play a big part in the weddings in Jesus's culture. 

Front Page Date: 

Feb 15 2023