Mark 8:17 Why do you reason that it is because you have no bread?

Spoken to
Apostles

In a boat, Jesus tells apostles to watch out for the leaven of the Pharisees and they think that it is because they have only one loaf of bread.

KJV

Mark 8:17 Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened?

NIV

Mark 8:17   Why are you talking about having no bread? Do you still not see or understand? Are your hearts hardened?

LISTENERS HEARD

Why do you argue about loaves you don't have? Not yet do you comprehend nor put it together? You hold still, having hardened those hearts of yours.

LOST IN TRANSLATION

The verb translated as "reason" and "talking means to "argue" or "debate," and Jesus has used it to refer to an internal debate, using it often with the phrase "in your hearts" which is a topic here.

The translation as "no bread" goes against the fact that they do have one loaf of bread. What Jesus says is that they don't have loaves, plural.

The two Greek words translated as "perceive" and "understand" are both translated commonly in the KJV as "understand."  The first means comprehending what you are seeing and the second means putting together what we see  into a bigger picture.

This last verb "have" here (translated as "are" in the NIV) isn't used to form past tenses as it is in English, which is confusing in this context. Specifically, it is not used here to form the past perfect tense of "hardened" but we need a form of have to make a past perfect in English so this is  challenge. The Greek "have" has a broad range of specific meaning and can mean "possess mentally" and "keep still," both are relevant here where its sense is "hold" in the was we use "are stuck mentally."

The Greek word translated as "hardening" is used uniquely by Jesus in this verse. This is the Greek word used to translate the OT references to the hardening of hearts. 

The word "heart" is singular though Jesus refers to the plural you as possessing it, the sense is "this heart of yours." Jesus refers to a group sharing a single heart several times in the Gospels.

MY TAKE

We argue about what we don't have or understand.

GREEK ORDER

Τί       διαλογίζεσθε  ὅτι    ἄρτους οὐκ  ἔχετε; ;
Why  do you argue  about loaves don't you have?

οὔπω        νοεῖτε                   οὐδὲ συνίετε;            πεπωρωμένην     ἔχετε               τὴν    καρδίαν     ὑμῶν
Not yet do you comprehend nor   put it together? having hardened You hold still, those hearts     of yours.

# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES
9
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "reason" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
  • WP -- Wrongly Placed -- The word "no" doesn't appear here but negates the verb.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "bread" does not capture the word's specific meaning. 
  • WN  --Wrong Number- The word "bread" is translated as singular but the Greek word is plural.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "have" does not capture the word's specific meaning in this context.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the/this" before "heart" is not shown in the English translation.
  • OS -- Outdated Source -- The Greek word translated as "yet" existed in the KJV Greek source but not the source we use today.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  The "harden" is not an active verb but a participle, "having hardened."
  • WT --Wrong Tense - The English verb "hardened" is the present tense, but Greek is in the past perfect, a completed action, "having hardened."
# NIV TRANSLATION ISSUES
11
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "talking" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  The "having" is not a participle but an active verb , "have."
  • WP -- Wrongly Placed -- The word "no" doesn't appear here but negates the verb.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "bread" does not capture the word's specific meaning. 
  • WN  --Wrong Number- The word "bread" is translated as singular but the Greek word is plural.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- This is not the common word usually translated as "see."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- This is not the common word usually translated as "or."
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "are" should be something more like "have."
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "the/this" before "heart" is not shown in the English translation.
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  The "harden" is not an active verb but a participle, "having hardened."
  • WT --Wrong Tense - The English verb "hardened" is the present tense, but Greek is in the past perfect, a completed action, "having hardened."
EACH WORD of KJV

Why-- The word translated as "why" means primarily "anything" or "anyone," but Jesus often uses it to start a question so it means "who", "what", or even "why". 

reason -- (CW) "Reason" is a verb that means "to calculate exactly", "to add up account", "to debate," and "to argue." It is not a common word. Jesus only uses it seven time, but he often uses it, as he does here, with the word "heart."

ye, -- This comes from the plural, second-person form of the verb above.

because -- The word translated as "because" introduces a statement of fact or cause so  "with regard to," "that" or "because."

ye -- This comes from the plural, second-person form of the verb below.

have -- The word translated as "have" means to "have", "possess", "bear", "keep close", "have means to do",  "to have due to one", or "keep" and many specific uses. This verb isn't used to form past tenses as it is in English. 

no -- (WP) The Greek word translated as "no" is the Greek negative used to deny objective facts, not opinions. It makes a negative statement of fact. Adding "really" to the sentence captures the same idea. It negatives the verb,  not the noun.

bread? -- (CW, WN) The word translated as "bread" means "small loaf or cake of bread". It is more like a slice of bread today.  This word is not singular but plural.

perceive  -- "Perceive"  from a verb that means "to perceive with the eyes," "to perceive with the mind," and "to observe." We use the word "see" to have the same sense of physical seeing and perceiving with the mind. This is the root word for the key word in Jesus's teaching that gets translated as "repent" but which actually means "change your mind."  There are several words translated as "understand" in the Gospels, but this word might be closest.

ye -- This comes from the plural, second-person form of the verb above.

not yet -- "Not..yet" is an adverb that means "not yet" and a strong form of "not" and "not at all." It begins the clause about perceiving.

neither -- "Neither" is from a Greek negative meaning "but not" and as both parts of "neither...nor."

understand? -- The word translated as "understand" means "to bring together." It means "understand" in the same sense that we say "put it together" to mean "understand." This word is always translated as "understand" in the KJV translation.

have -- (CW) The word translated as "have" means to "have", "possess", "bear", "keep close", "have means to do",  "to have due to one", or "keep" and many specific uses. This verb isn't used to form past tenses as it is in English, which is confusing in this context. Specifically, it is not used here to form the past perfect tense of "hardened" but is needed in English to do so. It can also mean "possess mentally" and "keep still" both are relevant here where its sense is "hold" in the was we use "are stuck mentally."

ye -- This comes from the plural, second-person form of the verb above.

your -- The word translated as "your" is plural addressing a group of Jesus's listeners. This comes after the word "heart."

missing "the/this"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article," the," which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," and "those"). See this article for more. 

heart -- "Heart" is the Greek word that means "heart" both the physical organ and as the seat of emotions, which we discuss in a larger Greek context in this article here. However, this phrase can be read as defining the "heart" and both the "soul" and "the mind".

yet --- (OS) There is nothing in the Greek that can be translated as "yet" in the source we use today but it does exist in the source that the KJV translators used.

hardened? -- (WF, WT)  "Harden" is a verb that means "to petrify", "to turn into stone," and "to harden." It is in the form of an adjective in the same singular form as "heart." The tense is the past perfect, so the sense is "having hardened." The "have" above is not part of this verb but it is a past perfect tense. This verb comes first in the clause, introducing the rest.

EACH WORD of NIV

Why-- The word translated as "why" means primarily "anything" or "anyone," but Jesus often uses it to start a question so it means "who", "what", or even "why". 

are -- This helping verb indicates the present tense of the verb. It is used here to form the present, progressive tense, which doesn't exist in Greek but which can smooth the flow of English sentences.

you , -- This comes from the plural, second-person form of the verb above.

talking -- (CW) "Talking " is a verb that means "to calculate exactly", "to add up account", "to debate," and "to argue." It is not a common word. Jesus only uses it seven time, but he often uses it, as he does here, with the word "heart."

about -- The word translated as "about " introduces a statement of fact or cause so  "with regard to," "that" or "because."

you -- This comes from the plural, second-person form of the verb below.

having --  (WF) The word translated as "having" means to "have", "possess", "bear", "keep close", "have means to do",  "to have due to one", or "keep" and many specific uses. This verb isn't used to form past tenses as it is in English. 

no -- (WP) The Greek word translated as "no" is the Greek negative used to deny objective facts, not opinions. It makes a negative statement of fact. Adding "really" to the sentence captures the same idea.

bread? -- (CW, WN) The word translated as "bread" means "small loaf or cake of bread". It is more like a slice of bread today.

Do -- This English helping verb is used to create questions, commands, negative statements, and smooth word flow in translation from Greek

you -- This comes from the plural, second-person form of the verb below.

still -- "Still " is an adverb that means "not yet" and a strong form of "not" and "not at all." It begins the clause about perceiving.

not -- This is from the word above that is negative.

see -- (CW) "See"  from a verb that means "to perceive with the eyes," "to perceive with the mind," and "to observe." We use the word "see" to have the same sense of physical seeing and perceiving with the mind. This is the root word for the key word in Jesus's teaching that gets translated as "repent" but which actually means "change your mind."  There are several words translated as "understand" in the Gospels, but this word might be closest. This is not one of the common words translated as "see."

or --  (CW) "Or" is from a Greek negative meaning "but not" and as both parts of "neither...nor." This is not the common word translated as "or."

understand? -- The word translated as "understand" means "to bring together." It means "understand" in the same sense that we say "put it together" to mean "understand." This word is always translated as "understand" in the KJV translation. A number of other Greek words begin with the same prefix, and all mean some form for bringing things together, for calling a meeting to gathering a crop.

Are -- (WW) The word translated as "have" means to "have", "possess", "bear", "keep close", "have means to do",  "to have due to one", or "keep" and many specific uses. This verb isn't used to form past tenses as it is in English, which is confusing in this context. Specifically, it is not used here to form the past perfect tense of "hardened" but is needed in English to do so. It can also mean "possess mentally" and "keep still" both are relevant here where its sense is "hold" in the was we use "are stuck mentally."

missing "the/this"  -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article," the," which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," and "those"). See this article for more.

your -- The word translated as "your" is plural addressing a group of Jesus's listeners. This comes after the word "heart."

hearts -- (WN)  "Heart" is the Greek word that means "heart" both the physical organ and as the seat of emotions, which we discuss in a larger Greek context in this article here. However, this phrase can be read as defining the "heart" and both the "soul" and "the mind". This word is not plural but singular. WN  --Wrong Number- The word "hearts" is translated as plural but the Greek word is singular.

hardened? -- (WF, WT)  "Harden" is a verb that means "to petrify", "to turn into stone," and "to harden." It is in the form of an adjective in the same singular form as "heart." The tense is the past perfect, so the sense is "having hardened." The "have" above is not part of this verb but it is a past perfect tense. This verb comes first in the clause, introducing the rest.

COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV

Τί [252 verses](irreg sg neut nom) "Why" is tis which can mean "someone", "any one", "everyone", "they [indefinite]", "many a one", "whoever", "anyone", "anything", "some sort", "some sort of", "each", "any", "the individual", "such," and so on. In a question, it can mean "who", "why," or "what."

διαλογίζεσθε [7 verses](( verb 2nd pl pres ind mp) "Reason" is from dialogizomai, which means "to calculate exactly", "to add up account", "to debate," and "to argue."

ὅτι [19 verses] (adv/conj) "Because" is hoti, which introduces a statement of fact "with regard to the fact that", "seeing that," and acts as a causal adverb meaning "for what", "because", "since," and "wherefore."

ἄρτους [32 verses](( noun pl masc acc ) "Loaves" is artos, which means specifically a "cake of whole wheat bread," and generally "loaf," and "bread."

οὐκ [269 verses](adv)"No" is ou which is the negative adverb for facts and statements, negating both single words and sentences. The other negative adverb, μή applies to will and thought; οὐ denies, μή rejects; οὐ is absolute, μή relative; οὐ objective, μή subjective.

ἔχετε; [181 verses](verb 2nd pl pres ind act ) "Ye have" is echo, which means "to have", "to hold", "to possess", "to keep", "to have charge of", "to have due to one", "to maintain", "to hold fast", "to bear", "to carry", "to keep close", "to keep safe," and "to have means to do."

οὔπω [9 verses](adv) "Not..yet" is from oupo, which means "not yet" and a strong form of "not" and "not at all."

νοεῖτε [8 verses] (verb 2nd pl pres ind act) "Perceive ye" is from noeo, means specifically "perceive by the eyes", "observe," "to perceive with the mind", "apprehend", "think out, "devise", "consider," (of words) "bear a certain sense," and "reflect."

οὐδὲ [51 verses](adv/conj) "Neither" is from oude , which means "but not", "neither", "nor,"and "not even."

συνίετε; [14 verses]( verb 2nd pl pres ind act ) "Understand" is from syniemi which means "to bring together" or "to set together." It is also a metaphor for "perceive," "hear," and "understand" as we would say that we "put it all together" when figuring something out

πεπωρωμένην [1 verse]( part sg perf mp fem acc ) "Harden" is from poroo, which means "to petrify", "to turn into stone," and "to harden."

ἔχετε [181 verses]( verb 2nd pl pres ind act ) "Ye have" is echo, which means "to have", "to hold", "to possess", "to keep", "to have charge of", "to have due to one", "to maintain", "to hold fast", "to bear", "to carry", "to keep close", "to keep safe," and "to have means to do." It can also mean "possess mentally" and "keep still."

τὴν [821 verses] ( article sg fem acc ) Untranslated is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the"), which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one" or, in the plural, "the ones."

καρδίαν [37 verses]( noun sg fem acc ) "Heart" is kardia, which means "heart (the physical organ)", "the seat of emotions (especially passion, rage, and anger)", "inclination", "desire," "purpose", "mind", "the pith (in wood), and "the deep (of the sea)."

ὑμῶν; [168 verses] (pron 2nd pl gen) "Your" is humon, the plural possessive form of su the pronoun of the second person, "you."

Possible Symbolic Meaning
Front Page Date