John 5:37 And the Father himself,

Spoken to
challengers

Jesus is accused of breaking the Sabbath and making himself a god by calling God his Father. The current topic is who or what testifies for him.

KJV

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

NIV

John 5:37 And the Father who sent me has himself testified concerning me. You have never heard his voice nor seen his form,

LISTENERS HEARD

And the sending me Father , that one, has testified about me. Neither a voice of his forevermore have you heard nor a form of his have you observed.

LOST IN TRANSLATION

Jesus starts off talking about who sent him in a distinctive phrase,  "the sending me Father." Jesus uses this phrase in four verses, all in John, all relating the Father as a witness to him. This is the first. It is followed by the pronoun meaning "that one there "to emphasize it. This is because he was being condemned for calling the Divine his father.

 

MY TAKE

God is "that one" for us all.

# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES
5
  • OS -- Outdated Source -- The Greek word translated as "himself" existed in the KJV Greek source but not the source we use today.
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "which" is not the common word usually translated as "which."
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "hath" indicates the past perfect tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future).
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "of" does not capture the specific meaning of the word.
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "seen" is not the common word usually translated as "seen."
# NIV TRANSLATION ISSUES
5
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "who" is not the common word usually translated as "who."
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "himself" is not the common word usually translated as "himself."
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "never" is not the common word usually translated as "never."
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "forevermore" is not shown in the English translation.
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "seen" is not the common word usually translated as "seen."
EACH WORD of KJV

And -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also").

the   -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article, without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

Father -- "Father" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.

himself, -- (OS) There is nothing in the Greek that can be translated as "himself" in the source we use today but it does exist in the source that the KJV translators used.

which -- (CW) The word translated as "which" is an adjective that highlights its noun as being in a specific place or time from a word that means "there." Used a pronoun, the sense is "that one there." Used in the form of an adverb,  it means "in that case," "in that way," "at that place," and "in that manner." This is not usually translated as "which."

hath -- (WT) This helping verb "hath" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past. This is not the tense of the verb here.

sent  - "He sent" is from a Greek verb that means "send," "send forth," "send away," "conduct," and "escort." This is the second most common word Jesus uses that is translated as "send out," but this one doesn't have the prefix that has the sense of "out."

me, -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition.

hath -- This helping verb "hath" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past.

borne witness -- "Borne witness" is the Greek verb that means "to give testimony" and "to bear witness." It has the sense of being true testimony. It is the verb form of the Greek word for "testimony" and "proof," which is the source of our word "martyr," and its funny spelling.

of  -- (CW) The Greek word translated as "of" means "around" when referring to a place, but in referring to a subject, it means "about," "concerning," "on account of," and "in regard to." This is the way Jesus usually uses it.

me. -- "Me" is the first-person possessive singular pronoun. This pronoun follows the noun so "of mine."  As a genitive object of a preposition, as here, it means movement away from something or a position away from something else.

Ye -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.

have -- This helping verb "have" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past.

neither -- "Neither" is a Greek conjunction that means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.

heard -- "Heard" is from a Greek verb that means "to hear" and "to listen." It has the same sense as the English not only of listening but of understanding.  It is the most common verb that Christ uses meaning "to hear." It also means "to listen" and "to understand," but amusingly, it also means "to be silent."

his -- The word translated as "his" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English.

voice - -- The noun translated as "call"  means "sound", "speech", "voice",  "cry" [of animals], "sounds" [of inanimate objects], and "report."

at any time, "At any time" is from an adverb which means "ever yet."

nor-- "Nor" is a Greek conjunction that means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.

seen -- (CW) "Seen" is from a Greek verb, which means "to see with the eyes," "to look," and "to observe." It is a metaphor for mental seeing, that is, perceiving. However, it is one of the many words that Christ uses to mean "see," but it is not one of the most common ones. Jesus seems to use this word often to mean "watch out" or "look out" as a warning.

his -- The word translated as "his" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English.

shape.  -  "Shape" is a noun that means "that which is seen", "shape", "form", "beauty of a person", "physique", "kind", "nature," and "wares." It is  from te same root as the  common  verb "to see."

EACH WORD of NIV

And -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also").

the   -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article, without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

Father -- "Father" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.

who -- (CW) The word translated as "who" is an adjective that highlights its noun as being in a specific place or time from a word that means "there." Used a pronoun, the sense is "that one there." Used in the form of an adverb,  it means "in that case," "in that way," "at that place," and "in that manner." This is not usually translated as "which."

sent  - "He sent" is from a Greek verb that means "send," "send forth," "send away," "conduct," and "escort." This is the second most common word Jesus uses that is translated as "send out," but this one doesn't have the prefix that has the sense of "out."

me, -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition.

has -- This helping verb "has" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past.

himself, -- (CW)-- The word translated as "himself" is an adjective that highlights its noun as being in a specific place or time from a word that means "there." Used a pronoun, the sense is "that one there." It is not the word usually translated as "himself."

testified -- "Testified " is the Greek verb that means "to give testimony" and "to bear witness." It has the sense of being true testimony. It is the verb form of the Greek word for "testimony" and "proof," which is the source of our word "martyr," and its funny spelling.

concerning -- The Greek word translated as "concerning " means "around" when referring to a place, but in referring to a subject, it means "about," "concerning," "on account of," and "in regard to." This is the way Jesus usually uses it.

me. -- "Me" is the first-person possessive singular pronoun. This pronoun follows the noun so "of mine."  As a genitive object of a preposition, as here, it means movement away from something or a position away from something else.

You -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.

have -- This helping verb "have" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past.

Never -- (CW) "Never" is a Greek conjunction that means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.

heard -- "Heard" is from a Greek verb that means "to hear" and "to listen." It has the same sense as the English not only of listening but of understanding.  It is the most common verb that Christ uses meaning "to hear." It also means "to listen" and "to understand," but amusingly, it also means "to be silent."

his -- The word translated as "his" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English.

voice - -- The noun translated as "call"  means "sound", "speech", "voice",  "cry" [of animals], "sounds" [of inanimate objects], and "report."

missing "forevermore"  -- (MW) The untranslated word "forevermore" is from an adverb which means "ever yet."

nor-- "Nor" is a Greek conjunction that means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.

seen -- (CW) "Seen" is from a Greek verb, which means "to see with the eyes," "to look," and "to observe." It is a metaphor for mental seeing, that is, perceiving. However, it is one of the many words that Christ uses to mean "see," but it is not one of the most common ones. Jesus seems to use this word often to mean "watch out" or "look out" as a warning.

his -- The word translated as "his" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English.

form.  -  "Form" is a noun that means "that which is seen", "shape", "form", "beauty of a person", "physique", "kind", "nature," and "wares." It is  from te same root as the  common  verb "to see."

COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV

καὶ [1089 verses](conj/adv) "And" is kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "also." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even," "also," and "just."

[821 verses](article sg masc nom)  "Who" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").

πέμψας [39 verses](part sg aor act masc nom) "Sent" is pempo, which means "send," "send forth," "send away," "conduct," and "escort." -- 

με [49 verses](pron 1st sg masc acc) "Me" is eme, which is the objective first-person, objective, singular pronoun that means  "me."

πατὴρ [191 verses](noun sg masc nom) "Father" is pater, which means "father," "grandfather," "author," "parent," and "forefathers."

ἐκεῖνος [107 verses](adj sg masc nom) "Which" is ekeinos, which means "the person there," "that person," "that thing," and, in the form of an adverb, "in that case," "in that way," "at that place," and "in that manner."

μεμαρτύρηκεν [16 verses] (3rd sg perf ind act) "Hath born witness" is martyreo, which means "to bear witness," "to give evidence," "give a good report," "testify to," and "acknowledge the value of." It is the basis for our word "martyr."

περὶ [73 verses](prep)  "As touching" is peri, which means "round about (Place)," "around," "about," "concerning," "on account of," "in regard to," "before," "above," "beyond," and "all around."

ἐμοῦ [239 verses](adj sg masc gen) "Me" is from mou (emou), which means "me," and "mine." As a genitive object means movement away from something or a position away from something else.

οὔτε [12 verses](partic) "Neither" is oute, which means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.

φωνὴν [13 verses] (noun sg fem acc) "Sound" is phone, which means "sound", "tone", "sound of a voice", "speech", "voice", "utterance", "cry" [of animals], "sounds" [of inanimate objects], "faculty of speech", "phrase", "saying", "rumor," and "report." -

αὐτοῦ [720 verses](adj sg masc gen) "His" (adj sg masc acc) "Him" is autos, which means "the same," and the reflexive pronouns, "myself," "yourself," "himself," "herself," "itself," or the oblique case of the pronouns, "him," "her," and "it." It also means "one's true self," that is, "the soul" as opposed to the body and "of one's own accord." In the adverbial form, it  means "just here" or "exactly there."

πώποτε [3 verses] (adv)"At any time" is from popote, which means "ever yet."

ἀκηκόατε [95 verses](2nd pl perf ind act ) "Ye have...heard" is akouo,  which means "hear of," "hear tell of," "what one actually hears," "know by hearsay," "listen to," "give ear to," "hear and understand," and "understand." The accusative object is the person/thing heard about, while the genitive is the person/thing heard from.  However, two genitives can be used with the sense of "hear of a thing from a person." -

οὔτε [12 verses](partic) "Nor" is oute, which means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.

εἶδος [1 verse](noun sg neut nom) "Shape" is from eidos, which means "that which is seen", "shape", "form", "beauty of a person", "physique", "kind", "nature," and "wares."

αὐτοῦ [720 verses](adj sg masc gen) "His" (adj sg masc acc) "Him" is autos, which means "the same," and the reflexive pronouns, "myself," "yourself," "himself," "herself," "itself," or the oblique case of the pronouns, "him," "her," and "it." It also means "one's true self," that is, "the soul" as opposed to the body and "of one's own accord." In the adverbial form, it  means "just here" or "exactly there."

ἑωράκατε [20 verses](2nd pl perf ind act) "Seen" is from horao, which means "to see with the eyes," "to look," "to observe," "see," "aim," "have sight," "behold," "keep in sight," and as a metaphor of mental sight, "discern," and "perceive."

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