John 17:25 O righteous Father,

Spoken to
Father

After the Last Supper, Jesus prays. He just asked his followers to be with him,

KJV

John 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

NIV

John 17:25 Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me.

LISTENERS HEARD

Father righteous as this society did not learn to know you, I myself, however, learned to know you, and these learned to know you because you yourself sent me out.

LOST IN TRANSLATION

The use of "righteous" here to describe the Father is interesting because the Greek adjective describes someone who observes the laws of civilization, so, for a judge, it means "righteous" in the sense of applying the law consistently. Jesus uses both the first-person subject pronoun here ("I myself") and the second-person subject pronoun ("your yourself") emphasizing his and his Father's roles. The word translated as "know" is the knowing we gain from learning rather than just seeing something.

 

 

 

GREEK ORDER

Πατὴρ δίκαιε,      καὶ      κόσμος σε   οὐκ         ἔγνω,
Father righteous , as  this society you  not         did learn to know ,

ἐγὼ        δέ           σε      ἔγνων,                  καὶ  οὗτοι  ἔγνωσαν                   ὅτι          σύ                 με   ἀπέστειλας,
I myself however you   learned to know , and  these  learned to know you because you yourself  me  sent out.

# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES
9
  • IW - Inserted Word -- The word "O" doesn't exist in the source.
  • MW - Missing Word -- The word "and" is not shown in the English translation.
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "hath" indicates the past perfect tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future).
  • MW -- Missing Word  -- The pronoun repeats the information in the verb so it should be repeated in English like "I myself."
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "have" indicates the past perfect tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future).
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "have" indicates the past perfect tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future).
  • MW -- Missing Word -- This subject pronoun duplicates information in the verb so it needs a "yourself" after "you" for emphasis.
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "hast" indicates the past perfect tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future).
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "sent" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
# NIV TRANSLATION ISSUES
7
  • WW --Wrong Word -- The word translated as "though" should be something more like "and."
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "hath" indicates the past perfect tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future).
  • MW -- Missing Word  -- The pronoun repeats the information in the verb so it should be repeated in English like "I myself."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "they" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
  • MW -- Missing Word -- This subject pronoun duplicates information in the verb so it needs a "yourself" after "you" for emphasis.
  • WT - Wrong Tense - The verb "have" indicates the past perfect tense, but the tense is something that happens at a specific point in time (past, present, or future).
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "sent" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
EACH WORD of KJV

-- (IW) There is nothing that can be translated as "O" in the Greek source

righteous The Greek adjective translated as "the righteous" means "observant of rules," "observant of customs," "well-ordered," "civilized," and "observant of duty." It could be translated as "law-abiding."

Father, -- "Father" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.

missing "and"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

the   -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

world -- Jesus uses the word translated as "the world" to mean "the world order," and "civilization," specifically its "rulers," or its organization. Today, we use the word "society" or "regime" in this sense. More about this word in this article about related words.

hath -- (WT) This helping verb "hath" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past. This is not the tense of the verb here.

not -- The Greek word translated as "not" is the Greek negative used to deny objective facts, not opinions. It means "no," "not," or"no truly." It makes a negative statement of fact. Adding "really" to the sentence captures the same idea. When a negative precedes the verb, it affects the whole clause. When it precedes other words, its force is limited to those words.

known -- "Known" is a verb that means "to know," "to recognize," "make known," "to know carnally," and "to learn." The idea of "realize" seems to capture most senses of this word better than "know," which is the meaning of "have seen."

thee:-- The "thee/you" here is the singular, accusative (objective,) second-person pronoun. It is the object of either the action of the verb or a preposition. As an object of a preposition, it indicates movement or the result of movement.

but -- The Greek word translated as "but" means "but," "however," and "on the other hand." It joins phrases in an adversarial way. Since it always falls in the second position, translating it as "however" often captures its feeling better.  It can also be an explanation of cause ("so"). When used with a conditional starting a clause, the sense is "if/when...then." When used with an particle meaning "indeed" the sense is "on one hand...on the other hand."

I -- The pronoun "I" is used here.  When it has no verb, the verb "is" or the previous verb is assumed. When the subject of the sentence is part of the verb, its explicit use accentuates who is speaking "I." Saying "I myself" captures this feeling in English.

missing "myself" -- (MW)  The subject pronoun repeats the information in the verb so it should be repeated in English like "I myself."

have -- (WT) This helping verb "have" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past. This is not the tense of the verb here.

known -- "Known" is a verb that means "to know," "to recognize," "make known," "to know carnally," and "to learn." The idea of "realize" seems to capture most senses of this word better than "know," which is the meaning of "have seen."

thee, -- The "thee/you" here is the singular, accusative (objective,) second-person pronoun. It is the object of either the action of the verb or a preposition. As an object of a preposition, it indicates movement or the result of movement.

and -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

these   -- "These" is translated from a Greek adjective that means "this," "that," "the nearer." Without a noun, it has the sense of "this one" or "that one." It is in the form of a subject.

have -- (WT) This helping verb "have" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past. This is not the tense of the verb here.

known -- "Known" is a verb that means "to know," "to recognize," "make known," "to know carnally," and "to learn." The idea of "realize" seems to capture most senses of this word better than "know," which is the meaning of "have seen."

that  -- The word translated as "that" introduces a statement of fact or cause, "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore."

thou -- The  "you" here in the second-person pronoun in form of a singular subject. Since, as the subject of the sentence, it is part of the verb, its explicit use repeats the idea of who is speaking, "you." Saying "you yourself" captures this feeling in English.

missing "yourself" -- (MW)  The subjective pronoun repeats the information in the verb so it should be repeated in English like "you yourself."

hast -- (WT) This helping verb "hast" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past. This is not the tense of the verb here.

sent  --- (CW) The "send " here is a word that means "to send off" and "dispatch." It is the source of our word "apostle." This word is not the simple "send" but a more complex one that means "send out" or "send from."

me. -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition. As the object of a preposition, an accusative object indicates movement towards something or a position reached as a result of that movement.

EACH WORD of NIV

Righteous The Greek adjective translated as "the righteous" means "observant of rules," "observant of customs," "well-ordered," "civilized," and "observant of duty." It could be translated as "law-abiding."

Father, -- "Father" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.

though -- (WW) The word translated as "though" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

the   -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

world -- Jesus uses the word translated as "the world" to mean "the world order," and "civilization," specifically its "rulers," or its organization. Today, we use the word "society" or "regime" in this sense. More about this word in this article about related words.

does  -- This English helping verb is used to create questions, commands, negative statements, and smooth word flow in translation from Greek

not -- The Greek word translated as "not" is the Greek negative used to deny objective facts, not opinions. It means "no," "not," or"no truly." It makes a negative statement of fact. Adding "really" to the sentence captures the same idea. When a negative precedes the verb, it affects the whole clause. When it precedes other words, its force is limited to those words.

know -- "Known" is a verb that means "to know," "to recognize," "make known," "to know carnally," and "to learn." The idea of "realize" seems to capture most senses of this word better than "know," which is the meaning of "have seen."

you:-- The "thee/you" here is the singular, accusative (objective,) second-person pronoun. It is the object of either the action of the verb or a preposition. As an object of a preposition, it indicates movement or the result of movement.

missing "but"  -- (MW) The untranslated word  "but" means "but," "however," and "on the other hand." It joins phrases in an adversarial way. Since it always falls in the second position, translating it as "however" often captures its feeling better.  It can also be an explanation of cause ("so"). When used with a conditional starting a clause, the sense is "if/when...then." When used with an particle meaning "indeed" the sense is "on one hand...on the other hand."

I -- The pronoun "I" is used here.  When it has no verb, the verb "is" or the previous verb is assumed. When the subject of the sentence is part of the verb, its explicit use accentuates who is speaking "I." Saying "I myself" captures this feeling in English.

missing "myself" -- (MW)  The subject pronoun repeats the information in the verb so it should be repeated in English like "I myself."

know -- "Know" is a verb that means "to know," "to recognize," "make known," "to know carnally," and "to learn." The idea of "realize" seems to capture most senses of this word better than "know," which is the meaning of "have seen."

you, -- The "thee/you" here is the singular, accusative (objective,) second-person pronoun. It is the object of either the action of the verb or a preposition. As an object of a preposition, it indicates movement or the result of movement.

and -- The Greek word translated as "and" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."

they --(CW) "They" is translated from a Greek adjective that means "this," "that," "the nearer." Without a noun, it has the sense of "this one" or "that one." It is in the form of a subject.

known -- "Known" is a verb that means "to know," "to recognize," "make known," "to know carnally," and "to learn." The idea of "realize" seems to capture most senses of this word better than "know," which is the meaning of "have seen."

that  -- The word translated as "that" introduces a statement of fact or cause, "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore."

you -- The  "you" here in the second-person pronoun in form of a singular subject. Since, as the subject of the sentence, it is part of the verb, its explicit use repeats the idea of who is speaking, "you." Saying "you yourself" captures this feeling in English.

missing "yourself" -- (MW)  The subjective pronoun repeats the information in the verb so it should be repeated in English like "you yourself."

have -- (WT) This helping verb "hast" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past. This is not the tense of the verb here.

sent  --- (CW) The "send " here is a word that means "to send off" and "dispatch." It is the source of our word "apostle." This word is not the simple "send" but a more complex one that means "send out" or "send from."

me. -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition. As the object of a preposition, an accusative object indicates movement towards something or a position reached as a result of that movement.

COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV

Πατὴρ [191 verses](noun sg masc voc) "Father" is pater, which means "father," "grandfather," "author," "parent," and "forefathers."

δίκαιε, [21 verses](adj sg masc/fem voc) "The righteous" is dikaios which means "observant of rules," "observant of customs," "well-ordered," "civilized," and "observant of duty." Later it means "well-balanced," "impartial," and "just." As a verb, it means to "set right," "hold or deem right," "claim or demand as a right," "pronounce judgment," "do a man right or justice," "chastise," "punish, and in passive, "have right done one." --

καὶ [1089 verses](conj/adv) "And" is kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "also." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even," "also," and "just."

[821 verses](article sg masc nom)  "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").

κόσμος [63 verses](noun sg masc nom) "World" is kosmos, which mean "order," "good order," "ruler," "civilization," "world order," "universe," and "the world of men." It is a form of the is verb kosmeô, which means "to order," "to arrange," "to rule," "to adorn" (especially women), and "to equip." It especially means controlling and arranging an army.

σε: [48 verses](pron 2nd sg acc) "You" is from se  the objective form of the second-person, singular pronoun. --  

οὐκ [269 verses](partic) "Not" is ou , the negative adverb for facts and statements, negating both single words and sentences.  The other negative adverb, μή applies to will and thought; οὐ denies, μή rejects; οὐ is absolute, μή relative; οὐ objective, μή subjective.

ἔγνω, [62 verses] (verb 3rd sg aor ind act or verb 1st sg aor ind act) "Hath...known," is ginosko which means "to learn to know," "to know by reflection or observation," and "to perceive."

ἐγὼ [162 verses](pron 1st sg masc nom) "I" is ego, which is the first-person singular pronoun meaning "I." It also means "I at least," "for my part," "indeed," and for myself.

δὲ [446 verses](conj) "But" is de which means "but" and "on the other hand." It is the particle that joins sentences in an adversarial way but can also be an explanation of indirect cause ("so"). In an  "if" (εἰ ) clause or temporal "when" (ὅταν) clause the sense is "if/when... then." In a series begun by men, its means "on the other hand." In a series begun by men, its means "on the other hand."

σε: [48 verses](pron 2nd sg acc) "You" is from se  the objective form of the second-person, singular pronoun. --  

ἔγνω, [62 verses] (verb 3rd sg aor ind act or verb 1st sg aor ind act) "Hath...known," is ginosko which means "to learn to know," "to know by reflection or observation," and "to perceive."

καὶ [1089 verses](conj/adv) "And" is kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "also." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even," "also," and "just."

οὗτοι [83 verses](adj pl masc nom) "These" is houtos, which as an adjective means "this," "that," "the nearer."

ἔγνωσαν [62 verses] (verb 3rd pl aor ind act) "Have...known," is ginosko which means "to learn to know," "to know by reflection or observation," and "to perceive."

ὅτι [332 verses](adv/conj) "That" is hoti, which introduces a statement of fact "with regard to the fact that," "seeing that," and acts as a causal adverb meaning "for what," "because," "since," and "wherefore."

σὺ  [36  verses](pron 2nd sg nom) "Thee/you" is su , which means "you" in the second-person pronoun in form of a singular subject.

με [49 verses](pron 1st sg masc acc) "Me" is eme, which is the objective first-person, objective, singular pronoun that means  "me."

ἀπέστειλας, [60 verses](verb 2nd sg aor ind act) "Hast sent" is apostello, which means "to send off," "to send away," or "to dispatch." 

Unimportant Opinions and Imaginings

Again, Jesus comes back to the "world order," that is, human society, and its lack of understanding of God. Here, the alternative translates that as its inability to perceive God, that is, see what God really must be.

In John 17:23, Christ says Christian unity is what will teach society that Jesus was sent by the Father, and here Christ extends that idea to say that Christian unity tell society about the faithfulness of God, who is the author of civilization. The "these" here may refer to Christ's followers, but it given that society learns that Christ was sent by God.

The key part in this verse is God's sending Christ out into society. This is God taking action on the part of humanity, reinventing human tradition and law. Christ's life contrasts the values of God with the values of society. Christ's Father is not the indifferent, uninterested gods of the ancient world, not involving themselves in human affairs. By the sending of Christ, we learn that God has a plan and a purpose for the perfecting or completing of humanity. This is the other message in Jhn 17:23. It is reemphasized here when Christ calls God the observant Father.

To topic of this whole section continues to be the oneness of God, Christ and his followers though that topic isn't referenced directly here. This "oneness" is in contrast to the multiple "idols" worshipped, not only by ancient society, but by all human societies that naturally raise social and natural forces such as wealth, fame, sex, political power and so on to level of deserving praise, worship, and devotion. The ancient "gods" were nothing but personification of those forces.

These multiple idols, then and now, are indifferent to human affairs as a whole. They are reflections of the indifferent gods of our individual self-interest. They may favor us or not, at their whim, but they exist in a universe of chaos, selfishness, and meaninglessness, not a universe of purpose and a single divine plan.

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