John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them

Spoken to: 

Father

After the Last Supper, Jesus prays. He just said that neither he nor his apostles are of the world.

KJV: 

John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

NIV : 

John 17:15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one.

LISTENERS HEARD: 

I don't ask that you might lift them from this society, but that you might guard them from this worthlessness.

MY TAKE: 

Sliding into worthlessness is easy while we are in this society.

GREEK (Each Word Explained Bottom of Page): 

LOST IN TRANSLATION: 

The word that KJV translates as "pray" primarily means "ask." The word translated as "take" primarily means "to lift up." The word translated as "keep" primarily means "to guard." And the word translated as "evil" means "worthless" but since it is an adjective used as singular noun, "worthlessness." (See this article for more.) What is interesting is that most Bible translations follow the KJV closely in most of these word uses. A few use "ask" or "demand" instead of "pray." The NIV uses "protect" instead of "keep" and it is completely misleading as far as the introductory phrase, making "pray" into a noun, "prayer".

There are two parallel phrases here, "out of the world" and "from the evil," but we cannot see that they both use the same preposition. It is clearer if we translate this preposition consistently as "from." fThis is important because Jesus uses the same "from the world" phrase over and over here, in the previous verse, John 17:14, and the following one, John 17:16,,  In those verses it is translated as "of the world."  Making them all "from the world" makes it much clearer what Jesus is doing.

# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES: 

5
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "pray" is not the common word usually translated as "pray."
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "but" is not the common word usually translated as "but."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "take" is not the common word usually translated as "take."
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "from" is the same word translated as "out of" above.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "evil" does not capture the word's specific meaning.

# NIV TRANSLATION ISSUES: 

12
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  The "my" is not a possessive pronoun but the subject from the verb.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "prayer" is not the common word usually translated as "pray."
  • WF -- Wrong Form -  The "prayer" is not a noun but  the verb.
  • IW - Inserted Word -- The word "is" doesn't exist in the source.
  • CW - Confusing Word -- The "but" is not the common word usually translated as "but."
  • MW -- Missing Word -- This verb is a subjunctive, which requires a "should" or "might" when outside of a when/if clause.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "take" is not the common word usually translated as "take."
  • MW -- Missing Word -- This verb is a subjunctive, which requires a "should" or "might" when outside of a when/if clause.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "protect" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "from" is the same word translated as "out of" above.
  • CW --Confusing Word -- The "evil" does not capture the word's specific meaning.
  • IW - Inserted Word -- The word "one" doesn't exist in the source.

EACH WORD of KJV : 

I -- This is from the first-person, singular form of the verb.

pray-  (CW) The word translated as "ask" means "to ask"  "to beg," or "to question."  It means to "ask about a thing" or "to question a person." A different Greek verb means "asking for something" as in "request." This is not the common word usually translated as "pray."

not -- The Greek word translated as "not" is the Greek negative used to deny objective facts, not opinions. It means "no," "not," or"no truly." It makes a negative statement of fact. Adding "really" to the sentence captures the same idea. When a negative precedes the verb, it affects the whole clause. When it precedes other words, its force is limited to those words. 

that -- The word translated as "that" is a conjunction that starts a subordinate clause  "that," "when," "in order that" "when," or "because." It is used as an introduction to a command, where it isn't translated. -- The word translated as "there" is an adverb "in that place," "there," "where," or "when."

thou -- This is from the second-person, singular form of the verb.

shouldest -- This helping verb "should" indicates that the verb indicates a possibility, the subjunctive. Helping or auxiliary verbs are needed to translate the Greek verb forms into English.

take --  (CW) "Take" is one of Christ's favorite "multiple meaning" words. It is a verb that means "to raise up," "elevate," "to bear," "to carry off," "to take and apply to any use," "lifted" in the sense of "removed," and "to cause to cease." Jesus uses this verb to refer to what will happen to "the son of man," which can apply either to his being raised from the dead or lifted up on the cross. The verb also came to mean "remove" in the same way we describe stealing as "shoplifting." It is not the common word for "take."

them -- The word translated as "them" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English.

out of -- The Greek preposition translated as "out of" means "out of" or "from." The word also means "beyond," "on," "in," "since," or "by"based upon its context.

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

world, -- Jesus uses the word translated as "the world" to mean "the world order," and "civilization," specifically its "rulers," or its organization. Today, we use the word "society" or "regime" in this sense. More about this word in this article about related words.

but -- (CW) The Greek word translated as "but" denotes an exception or simple opposition. It is used to emphasize the contrast between things like we use "instead," "but instead,"or "rather." It is not the common word usually translated as "but." It is the Greek word "other" like we use "otherwise." Jesus often uses this conjunction to connect a negative clause, "not this," with a positive one, "instead this."

that-- The word translated as "that" is a conjunction that starts a subordinate clause  "that," "when," "in order that" "when," or "because." It is used as an introduction to a command, where it isn't translated. -- The word translated as "there" is an adverb "in that place," "there," "where," or "when."

thou -- This is from the second-person, singular form of the verb.

shouldest -- This helping verb "should" indicates that the verb indicates a possibility, the subjunctive. Helping or auxiliary verbs are needed to translate the Greek verb forms into English.

keep    - The word translated as "keep" means "to watch over," "to guard," "to take care of," "to give heed to," "to keep," "to test by observation or trial," and "to observe." Jesus uses this word seventeen times, almost always with the idea of "keeping" in commandments or words. "Keep" works well because it combines the idea of "guarding" and "observing," but "take care of" works even better when this verb is used with related ideas such as "cares for."

them  -- The word translated as "them" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English.

from -- (CW) The Greek preposition translated as "from" means "out of" or "from." The word also means "beyond," "on," "in," "since," or "by"based upon its context. However, in Greek, they use the genitive case instead of a preposition for the types of phrases that are translated into English "of" phrases. This is the same word translated as "out of" above so it is confusing.

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

evil.  " -- (CW)  The word translated as "evil" means "second-rate" or "worthless." When used as a noun, it has the sense of "worthlessness" or, when referring to an action, a "failure." It doesn't have a sense of malevolence that our word "evil" does. This article explores its meaning in more detail.

EACH WORD of NIV : 

My -- (WF) This is from the first-person, singular form of the verb.

prayer (CW, WF) The word translated as "ask" means "to ask"  "to beg," or "to question."  It means to "ask about a thing" or "to question a person." A different Greek verb means "asking for something" as in "request." This is not the common word usually translated as "pray." It is not the noun.

is -- (IW) There is nothing that can be translated as "is" in the Greek source

not -- The Greek word translated as "not" is the Greek negative used to deny objective facts, not opinions. It means "no," "not," or"no truly." It makes a negative statement of fact. Adding "really" to the sentence captures the same idea. When a negative precedes the verb, it affects the whole clause. When it precedes other words, its force is limited to those words. 

that -- The word translated as "that" is a conjunction that starts a subordinate clause  "that," "when," "in order that" "when," or "because." It is used as an introduction to a command, where it isn't translated. -- The word translated as "there" is an adverb "in that place," "there," "where," or "when."

you -- This is from the second-person, singular form of the verb.

missing "should" or "might"-- (MW) A helping verb is necessary because the following verb is a verb of possibility, a subjunctive, something that "should" or "might" occur. The helping verb is not needed in a clause beginning with an "if" or a "when."

take --  (CW) "Take" is one of Christ's favorite "multiple meaning" words. It is a verb that means "to raise up," "elevate," "to bear," "to carry off," "to take and apply to any use," "lifted" in the sense of "removed," and "to cause to cease." Jesus uses this verb to refer to what will happen to "the son of man," which can apply either to his being raised from the dead or lifted up on the cross. The verb also came to mean "remove" in the same way we describe stealing as "shoplifting." It is not the common word for "take."

them -- The word translated as "them" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English.

out of -- The Greek preposition translated as "out of" means "out of" or "from." The word also means "beyond," "on," "in," "since," or "by"based upon its context.

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

world, -- Jesus uses the word translated as "the world" to mean "the world order," and "civilization," specifically its "rulers," or its organization. Today, we use the word "society" or "regime" in this sense. More about this word in this article about related words.

but -- (CW) The Greek word translated as "but" denotes an exception or simple opposition. It is used to emphasize the contrast between things like we use "instead," "but instead,"or "rather." It is not the common word usually translated as "but." It is the Greek word "other" like we use "otherwise." Jesus often uses this conjunction to connect a negative clause, "not this," with a positive one, "instead this."

that-- The word translated as "that" is a conjunction that starts a subordinate clause  "that," "when," "in order that" "when," or "because." It is used as an introduction to a command, where it isn't translated. -- The word translated as "there" is an adverb "in that place," "there," "where," or "when."

you -- This is from the second-person, singular form of the verb.

missing "should" or "might"-- (MW) A helping verb is necessary because the following verb is a verb of possibility, a subjunctive, something that "should" or "might" occur. The helping verb is not needed in a clause beginning with an "if" or a "when."

protect - (CW)  The word translated as "keep" means "to watch over," "to guard," "to take care of," "to give heed to," "to keep," "to test by observation or trial," and "to observe." Jesus uses this word seventeen times, almost always with the idea of "keeping" in commandments or words. "Keep" works well because it combines the idea of "guarding" and "observing," but "take care of" works even better when this verb is used with related ideas such as "cares for." The word has less of a sense of "protect" and "defend."

them  -- The word translated as "them" is the Greek word commonly translated as third-person pronouns in English.

from -- (CW) The Greek preposition translated as "from" means "out of" or "from." The word also means "beyond," "on," "in," "since," or "by"based upon its context. However, in Greek, they use the genitive case instead of a preposition for the types of phrases that are translated into English "of" phrases. This is the same word translated as "out of" above so it is confusing.

the -- The word translated as "the" is the Greek definite article; without a noun, it has the sense of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those") than the English "the." See this article for more. 

evil.  " -- (CW)  The word translated as "evil" means "second-rate" or "worthless." When used as a noun, it has the sense of "worthlessness" or, when referring to an action, a "failure." It doesn't have a sense of malevolence that our word "evil" does. This article explores its meaning in more detail.

one. -- (IW) There is nothing that can be translated as "one" in the Greek source

COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV : 

οὐκ [269 verses](partic) "Not" is ou , the negative adverb for facts and statements, negating both single words and sentences.  The other negative adverb, μή applies to will and thought; οὐ denies, μή rejects; οὐ is absolute, μή relative; οὐ objective, μή subjective.

ἐρωτῶ [17 verses](verb 1st sg pres ind act) "I pray" is from erotaowhich means "to ask," "beg," or "to question." This word means asking for information.  -

ἵνα [134 verses](adv/conj) "That" is hina, which means "in that place," "there," "where," "when,"  but when beginning a phrase "so that," "in order that," "when," and "because."

ἄρῃς [56 verses](verb 2nd sg aor subj act) "Thou should take" is airo, which means "to lift up," "to raise," "to raise up," "to exalt," "to lift and take away," and "to remove." In some forms, it is the same as apaomai, which means to "pray to," or "pray for."

αὐτοὺς [720 verses](adj pl masc acc) "Them"  is autos, which means "the same," and the reflexive pronouns, "myself," "yourself," "himself," "herself," "itself," or the oblique case of the pronouns, "him," "her," and "it." In the plural, "they," "them," and "their." It also means "one's true self," that is, "the soul" as opposed to the body and "of one's own accord." In the adverbial form, it  means "just here" or "exactly there."

ἐκ  [121 verses] (prep) "Out of" is ek, which means 1) [of motion] "out of," "from," "by," "away from;" 2) [of place] "beyond," "outside of," "beyond;" 3) [of succession] "after," "from;" 4) [of rest] "on," "in," 5) [of time] "since," "from," "at," "in;" 5) [of materials] "out of," "made from;" 6) cause, instrument, or means "by."

τοῦ [821 verses](article sg masc gen)  "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").   

κόσμου [63 verses](noun sg masc gen) "World" is kosmos, which mean "order," "good order," "ruler," "civilization," "world order," "universe," and "the world of men." It is a form of the is verb kosmeô, which means "to order," "to arrange," "to rule," "to adorn" (especially women), and "to equip." It especially means controlling and arranging an army.

ἀλλ᾽ [154 verses](conj) "But" is alla, which means "instead," "otherwise," "but," "still," "at least," "except," "yet," nevertheless," "rather," "moreover," and "nay."

ἵνα [134 verses](adv/conj) "That" is hina, which means "in that place," "there," "where," "when,"  but when beginning a phrase "so that," "in order that," "when," and "because."

τηρήσῃς [17 verses](verb 2nd sg aor subj act) "Thou shouldest keep" is tereo, which means "to watch over," "to guard," "to take care of," "to give heed to," "to keep," "to test by observation or trial," and "to observe." Jesus often uses it with the Greek word meaning "care for" to associate the two ideas.

αὐτοὺς [720 verses](adj pl masc acc) "Them"  is autos, which means "the same," and the reflexive pronouns, "myself," "yourself," "himself," "herself," "itself," or the oblique case of the pronouns, "him," "her," and "it." In the plural, "they," "them," and "their." It also means "one's true self," that is, "the soul" as opposed to the body and "of one's own accord." In the adverbial form, it  means "just here" or "exactly there."

ἐκ  [121 verses] (prep) "Out of" is ek, which means 1) [of motion] "out of," "from," "by," "away from;" 2) [of place] "beyond," "outside of," "beyond;" 3) [of succession] "after," "from;" 4) [of rest] "on," "in," 5) [of time] "since," "from," "at," "in;" 5) [of materials] "out of," "made from;" 6) cause, instrument, or means "by."

τοῦ [821 verses](article sg masc gen)  "The" is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").   

πονηροῦ. [38 verses](adj sg masc gen)"Evil ene" is poneros, which means "burdened by toil," "useless," and "worthless." In a moral sense, it means "worthless," "base," and "cowardly."

Wordplay: 

 A parallel of "out of the world" with "out of evil." 

Related Verses: 

Unimportant Opinions and Imaginings: 

While we might see a religious purpose to using "pray" and "evil," most of this (mis?)translation seem to be a case of "that is just the way it has always been done," probably going back to the Latin Vulgate.

Front Page Date: 

Dec 28 2022