Spoken to:
Jesus tells people that he is the light of the world. His opponents say his testimony is untrue because cannot testify about himself. He says he and his father testify for him. His challengers ask where his father is.
KJV:
John 8:19 Ye neither know me, nor my Father: if ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also.
NIV :
John 8:19 “You do not know me or my Father. If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”
LISTENERS HEARD:
You have seen neither me nor that Father of mine. If you had seen me, also you would possibly have seen that Father of mine.
MY TAKE:
We must be able to comprehend in order to see.
GREEK (Each Word Explained Bottom of Page):
LOST IN TRANSLATION:
By translating the word that means "see" as "know," the relevance of this statement to being a witness is lost. In Jewish law, being a witness requires physically seeing something with your own eyes. The word used here is not just physical seeing, but the idea of seeing and understanding what you are seeing. Jesus set up this line with the whole previous discussion of "testifying" and "bearing witness" and "truth." The Greek word "truth" means literally "not hidden."
When his challengers ask Jesus where his Father is, Jesus replies that their problem is with what they have not seen. This comes out as clever rather than crazy because of the double meaning of the verb. His challengers are asking to physically see the Father, but Jesus is broadening this idea to mean not only physically seeing but also understanding what you are seeing. In English, we might make this joke by saying that they don't see Christ or his Father because they have a problem with their vision. In English, "vision" has both meanings: physically seeing and mentally envisioning. There is also some clever stuff here with the past perfect and pluperfect tenses, indicating his challenges haven't completed how they see Jesus. In other words, they see him physically, but they do not comprehend what they see.
There is also a problem here with the phrases "should have known" and "would know." The "should" and "would" are from a special Greek word that indicates the possibility of something. If these people actually did see and understand Jesus, they only MIGHT have seen and understood the Father. However, since they hadn't comprehended Jesus, that possibility is eliminated.
# KJV TRANSLATION ISSUES:
- WT - Wrong Tense - The English verb "known" is the pasttense, but Greek is in the past perfect, a completed action, "have seen."
- CW - Confusing Word -- The "know" does not capture the specific meaning of the word.
- MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" before "father" is not shown in the English translation.
- CW - Confusing Word -- The "know" does not capture the specific meaning of the word.
- CW - Confusing Word -- The "know" does not capture the specific meaning of the word.
- MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" before the second "father" is not shown in the English translation
# NIV TRANSLATION ISSUES:
- CW - Confusing Word -- The "not" is not the common word usually translated as "not."
- WT - Wrong Tense - The English verb "know" is the present tense, but Greek is in the past perfect, a completed action, "have seen."
- CW - Confusing Word -- The "know" does not capture the specific meaning of the word.
- CW - Confusing Word -- The "or" is not the common word usually translated as "not."
- MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" before "father" is not shown in the English translation.
- WT - Wrong Tense - The English verb "knew" is the past tense, but Greek is in the past pluperfect, an action completed in the past, "had seen."
- CW - Confusing Word -- The "knew" does not capture the specific meaning of the word.
- WT - Wrong Tense - The English verb "know" is the present tense, but Greek is in the past perfect, a completed action, "would have seen."
- CW - Confusing Word -- The "know" does not capture the specific meaning of the word.
- MW - Missing Word -- The word "the" before the second "father" is not shown in the English translation
EACH WORD of KJV :
Ye -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.
neither -- "Neither" is a Greek conjunction that means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.
know -- (WT , (CW)) The word translated as "know" means primarily "to see" and is used to mean "know' as we use the word "see" to mean "know" in English. The tense is the past perfect, not the present, "have known."
me, -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition.
nor -- "Neither" is a Greek conjunction that means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.
my-- "My" is the first-person possessive singular pronoun. This pronoun follows the noun so "of mine."
missing "the" -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article,"the," which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those"). See this article for more.
Father: -- "Father" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.
if -- The "if" here expresses a condition but it means nothing regarding whether that condition is met or not. It also means "if ever" and "whenever."
ye -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.
had -- This helping verb "had" indicates that the verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past, the pluperfect. Because of the "if" this verb would normally be a subjunctive, but the pluperfect form has no subjunctive form because it is completed in the past.
known -- (CW)The word translated as "know" means primarily "to see" and is used to mean "know' as we use the word "see" to mean "know" in English.
me, -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition.
ye -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.
should -- "Should" is a particle used with verbs to indicate that the action is limited by circumstances or defined by conditions. There is no exact equivalent in English but "possibly" is close. This word works similarly to the "might" or "should" of a subjunctive verb, but we don't want to confuse it with the subjunctive so using "possibly" provides a consistent translation. This particle usually suggests the subjunctive form of the verb but can be used without it. The same Greek letters can always be the more common conjunction meaning "when," so this meaning comes from context.
have -- The word translated as "know" means primarily "to see" and is used to mean "know' as we use the word "see" to mean "know" in English. It is also the pluperfect, but the "had" doesn't work because of the "should."
known -- (CW) The word translated as "known" means primarily "to see" and is used to mean "know' as we use the word "see" to mean "know" in English. The "see" is important because Jesus is talking about being a witness, which in Jewish law, requires seeing or hearing something personally.
my-- "My" is the first-person possessive singular pronoun. This pronoun follows the noun so "of mine."
missing "the" -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article,"the," which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those"). See this article for more.
Father: -- "Father" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.
also. -- The Greek word translated as "also" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it is can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."
EACH WORD of NIV :
You -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.
do -- This English helping verb is used to create questions, commands, negative statements, and smooth word flow in translation from Greek
not -- (CW) "Not" is a Greek conjunction that means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series. This is not the common "not."
know -- (WT, CW) The word translated as "know" means primarily "to see" and is used to mean "know' as we use the word "see" to mean "know" in English. The tense is the past perfect, not the present, "have known." The "see" is important because Jesus is talking about being a witness, which in Jewish law, requires seeing or hearing something personally.
me, -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition.
or -- (CW) "Or" is a Greek conjunction that means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.This is not the common "or."
my-- "My" is the first-person possessive singular pronoun. This pronoun follows the noun so "of mine."
missing "the" -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article,"the," which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those"). See this article for more.
Father: -- "Father" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.
If -- The "if" here expresses a condition but it means nothing regarding whether that condition is met or not. It also means "if ever" and "whenever."
you -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.
knew -- (WT, CW) The word translated as "knew" means primarily "to see" and is used to mean "know' as we use the word "see" to mean "know" in English. The verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past, the pluperfect.
me, -- "Me" is the regular first-person pronoun in Greek as the object of the verb or preposition.
you -- This is from the second-person, plural form of the verb.
would -- "Would" is a particle used with verbs to indicate that the action is limited by circumstances or defined by conditions. There is no exact equivalent in English but "possibly" is close. This word works similarly to the "might" or "should" of a subjunctive verb form. This particle usually suggests the subjunctive form of the verb but can be used without it.
know (WT, CW) The word translated as "know" means primarily "to see" and is used to mean "know' as we use the word "see" to mean "know" in English. The verb is the tense indicating an action completed in the past, the pluperfect.
my-- "My" is the first-person possessive singular pronoun. This pronoun follows the noun so "of mine."
missing "the" -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article,"the," which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those"). See this article for more.
Father: -- "Father" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.
also. -- The Greek word translated as "also" is used as the conjunction "and," but it also is used to add emphasis ("also"). In a series, it is can be translated as "not only...but also." After words implying sameness "as."
COMPARISON: GREEK to KJV :
Οὔτε [12 verses](partic) "Neither" is oute, which means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.
ἐμὲ [49 verses](pron 1st sg masc acc) "Me" is eme, which is the objective first-person, objective, singular pronoun that means "me."
οἴδατε [38 verses](2nd pl perf ind act) "Know" is oida which is a form of eido (ἴδω) which means "to see," "to examine," "to perceive," "to behold," "to know how to do," "to see with the mind's eye," and "to know."
οὔτε [83 verses][12 verses](partic) "Neither" is oute, which means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series. -- "Neither" is a Greek conjunction that means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.[12 verses](partic) "Neither" is oute, which means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series. -- "Neither" is a Greek conjunction that means "and not," and "neither/nor" when used in a series.
τὸν [821 verses](article sg masc acc) Untranslated is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the").
πατέρα [191 verses](noun sg masc acc) "The Father" is pater, which means "father," "grandfather," "author," "parent," and "forefathers."
μου: [239 verses](adj sg masc gen) "Me" is from mou (emou), which means "me," and "mine." As a genitive object means movement away from something or a position away from something else.
εἰ [90 verses](conj) "If" is ei, which is the particle used to express conditions "if" (implying nothing about its fulfillment) or indirect questions, "whether." It also means "if ever," "in case," and "whenever." It is combined with various conjunctions to create derivative conditions.
ἐμὲ [49 verses](pron 1st sg masc acc) "Me" is eme, which is the objective first-person, objective, singular pronoun that means "me."
ᾔδειτε [38 verses] (2nd pl plup ind act) "Ye had known" is oida which is a form of eido (ἴδω) which means "to see," "to examine," "to perceive," "to behold," "to know how to do," "to see with the mind's eye," and "to know."
καὶ [1089 verses](conj/adv) "And" is kai, which is the conjunction joining phrases and clauses, "and," or "also." After words implying sameness, "as" (the same opinion as you). Used in series, joins positive with negative "Not only...but also." Also used to give emphasis, "even," "also," and "just."
τὸν [821 verses](article sg masc acc) Untranslated is the Greek definite article, hos, ("the"). - missing "the" -- (MW) The untranslated word is the Greek definite article,"the," which usually precedes a noun and, without a noun, takes the meaning of "the one." The Greek article is much closer to our demonstrative pronouns ("this," "that," "these," "those"). See this article for more.
πατέρα [191 verses](noun sg masc acc) "The Father" is pater, which means "father," "grandfather," "author," "parent," and "forefathers." -- "Father" is the Greek noun that means "father" or any male ancestor so "forefathers." It is the word that Christ uses to address his own Father.
μου: [239 verses](adj sg masc gen) "Me" is from mou (emou), which means "me," and "mine." As a genitive object means movement away from something or a position away from something else.-- "My" is the first-person possessive singular pronoun. This pronoun follows the noun so "of mine." As a genitive object of a preposition, as here, it means movement away from something or a position away from something else.
ἂν [60 verses](particle) "Should be" is an, which is a particle used with verbs to indicate that the action is limited by circumstances or defined by conditions. There is no exact equivalent in English, but it is translated as "possibly," "would have," "might," "should," and "could."
ᾔδειτε [38 verses] (2nd pl plup ind act) "Ye had known" is oida which is a form of eido (ἴδω) which means "to see," "to examine," "to perceive," "to behold," "to know how to do," "to see with the mind's eye," and "to know."
Wordplay:
A play on the two meanings of "see" in Greek. To see something as in understanding it and to see something physically.